squeezing taxpayers. we will have to wait and see if drivers when this case. in the meantime, drive safely and watch out for highway robbers and the government. that's my "2 cents more." that is it for tonight on "the willis report." thank you for joining yes. don't forget to record the show with you cannot get his life. have a great night. we will see you right back here tomorrow. ♪ one -- lou: good evening, everybody. president obama today said that two weeks may not be enough to avoid going over the fiscal clef . i've won't add my voice tonight to those who say mr. obama actually wants to take us over the cliff. it is my view that not enough has been made by the national median of the fact that it will be the president's decision and his alone that we all go cliff

diving if, indeed, we are to go cliff diving. it is a decision that is cleerly , unequivocally, and unreservedly his to make. president obama has created the condition that must be met. to avoid the clothes and the dive. only he can judge whether his condition is reasonable and whether it has been reasonably met. the republican congressional leaders are at best supporting opposing players in the obama drama. we will take all of this up here tonight with leading republicans and presidential ask brent senator rand paul, a former congressman who has been to the fiscal prosodist, the chairman of the house ways and means committee and the average level conservative author and columnist mark stein. also tonight, we report on the nato dispatch of patriot missiles to turkey. concerns over serious chemical weapons. egypt's new is dictators whom

flees his presidential palace as tens of thousands of protesters turned violent. fox is military analysts joins us now. we begin tonight to meet with the president to make in the opinion of some republicans beat the germans to of were reasonable and productive negotiations to avoid the clef. here's the president the allowwng that there is enough time to negotiate with both tax and in seven of reform while. he says the days available before the close should be devoted to raising taxes on the ridge. >> we're not going to be able to come up with a comprehensive tax reform package that gets it all done just an next two weeks. ww are not going to be able to come up with necessarily a comprehensive and thailand reform package that could sell the next two weeks. when you looked at what arnold reagan did back in 1986, working with bill bradley and others, that was a year-and-a-half

process. among let's put a downpaymmnt on taxes, let's let tax breaks and the upper-income folks go up. lou: president obama is looking to hide even more taxes. to find more taxable victims beyond the so-called rich. but there are yet more conditions as white house press secretary jay carney today reminded us. the president demands any deal is dependent upon a hike in the nation's debt ceiling. carney says the debt ceiling is another issue the president simply cannot bring himself to negotiate with those lowly republicans on the hill. and today began a new campaign of blame for the national debt directed at, yes, congress. me. >> your not going to negotiate over what is a fundamental responsibility of congress, which is to pay the bills that congress incurred. it should be part of the deal.

it should be done, and it should be done without trauma. lou: the president is not alone in demands for non negotiation of vast regions of the federal wasteland. some ongressional democrats are also very specific about what they refuse to negotiate as well. for example, the conggessional black caucus announced that it is strongly opposed to any cuts in medicare, medicaid, or social security saying entitlements simply cannot be considered in initiation. wobbrn an unprecedented meeting to ddscuss the president's messaging on tax hikes. this was not a meeting of the anchors of a number of networks, as happens time to time, but rather a meeting with one network exclusively. msn b.c., the president bring in a left-wing host from in as nbc, including rachael matter out, al sharpton, lawrence o'donnell,

and souls, as well as huffington opposed founder area huffington. they all met with the president today in the white hhuse straight forward about the political purpose of their meeting, saying this afternoon at the white house the president met with influential progressives to talk about the importance of preventing a tax increase on middle class families, strengthening our economy, and adopting a balanced approach to deficit reduction. and so it goes. my first guest says it does not matter who you tax or what form revenue takes him, taking more money at the private sector will hurt economic growth. joining us now, republican senator from the great state of kentucky from the senator rand paul. good to have you with us, senator. >> good evening. the president says we don't have enough time for tax reform or in thailand reeorm. you know my responses? we have been talking about this for two years. why haven't we done anything? i met with the president a year-and-a-half ago and i looke@ across the table in.

i said in a we need to do something about social security. we need to do something to save medicare. they have done zero. how come there is no committee appear. d'agata washington. who is in charge of social security reform? nobody. everybody waits for a deadline and throws up their hands and says we don't have enough time. it is broken up here, but because they're not doing their job. lou: not doing their job, and whose job is it a much the republicans to start making some sense of the thing? i said, as you may have heard at the outset of this broadcast, clearly, unequivocally, without reserve, this will be the president's decision if the nation is to be taken over the so-called fiscal closed on january 1st. there is no reputation, no rebuttal. that is his decision, his conditions, and republicans are behaving as if they're equal partners in the madness that would be the result of this decision. why did they persist? >> i think we are in the middle

of all these negotiations. people be consumed by the art of the deal. nobody really is trying to rememmer all we stand for. if we don't stand for something, if we are not the party of limited government, lower taxes, then what are we doing appear? my point is, and not jumping up and down to do revenue neutral tax reform.@ i want taxes to be lowered because that is the only way you stimulate the economy, to leave more money in the economy, and i don't think it matters if it wants to raise taxes by raising rates or by getting rid of deductions. there both bad ideas. we as republicans have never thought it was a good idea, so let's of talk about how much we will raise taxes but, that an idea it is when the president insists on raising taxes and the economy goes into the tank. he can get all of the credit he deserves for sending us in the wrong direction. >> well, the political consequence of this, the economic consequence of this and by this i mean going over the

fiscal cliff will be significant , but what i don't %-effort, either self delusion r misrepresentation of the facts. you all, as republicans control the house of representatives. as we saw during the debt ceiling discussions in 2011, it is not a pretty perch from which to take on the bully pulpit of the presidency. >> but i think what we need to do is not get caught ii the trap of the compromise is raising taxes. i think there are many other compromises you could have. for example, i think one compromises we could save some money and military spending even though i think that is the most important -- lou: 55 billion? >> absolutely. i think we could..3 a think we could also say that,3 you know what, the ridge could pay more for their medicare. the rich could receive less for their social security.

those are compromises i presented directly to the president a year-and-a-half ago, and he has done zero. his party has done zero. they are hell bent on let's go soak there race. lou: with all respect, have you had this discussion with your party? what are they saying? those are rational and effective ideas. >> there are some in our party will except those, some in our party you get caught up to much in the, we have to make a deal with the president. i think this can be consistent with something the president and democrats want. they think the average people need to pay more of there fair share. what i would say is, let's let them receive less benefits because we don't have enough benefits to go around anyway. -et's come to a compromise there. let's look in military spending into a compromise there. the media has said dictated that the only compromises whether to raise taxes a lot, a little, or write in the middle somewhere, what it has to be raising taxes,

the only compromise. i don't except that. if we raise taxes wickets in the economy into a tailspin. lou: you know, the choice, as i said, in terms of consequences for the political or economic will be severe. i want to credit. i don't know if you read his piece entitled the gop, the party of slightly fewer tax hikes. this has to be a carefully managed, if you will be the mouthpiece of political choreography because republican party right now, the party of free enterprise and individual freedom, self-reliance, and lower taxes and smaller government is on the verge of giving up its claims on lower taxes, smaller government, and, perhaps, perhaps migrated dependency, less individual freedom and self-reliance. it gives not much for the party to cling to politically. lou: here is the thing. the facts are actually on our

side. when bush cut the tax rates in 2003, do you know what happened? more revenue. the percentage of that revenue. >> adelle want to give the full answer to this. we saw the slowest job creation. it was only matched by the procession of 2008 and nine. this is such a complicated economy, as you know as well or if not better than most of the folks are responsible for managing the regulation of this economy in washington. but the fact of the matter is, these are not such a simple and obvious choices that have to be made. and senator, you have been talking, and i think honestly and forthrightly about some of these decisions. we know that simply cutting taxes is not work. we know that simply spending more federal money does not work these are the two primary principal tenants of the left and the right, the republicans and democrats.

they have both demonstrated that it is just not that simple. you get the last word. >> i would just say that we have to be competitive worldwide. we'll losing jobs. one of the reasons we lose jobs as we have an income tax of 35% on our corporatioos. canada is 15%. europe and the loo 20's. money goes where is welcome, and money and jobs are falling to other countries. we will have to change our tax had to make it more as the double the business. lou: as always. good to talk with you. much more on the fiscal cliff, the negotiations that went to college. we will take that up with the "a-team" and throughout the broadcast tonight. arabs bring to winter of discootent. chemical weapons, iranian nukes, tens of thousands protesting ease of snow is dictated. is u.s. intervention next? carl oliver north joins us in moments. runaway spending, our national

debt top $16 trillion. who is doing the math? my next guest says it is all worse than people no. former house ways and means committee chairman bill archer after the break. this family used capital one venture miles to come home for the holidays. that's double miles you can actuallyse... sadly, their brother's white christmas just got "blacked out." [ brother ] but it's the family party! really jingles your bes, doesn't it? my gifto you! the capital one venture card! for any flightany time! th's double miles n actually use! how illuminating. what's in your walle let me guess, am on t naugh list again? ho ho ho! i've been fortate to w golf's biggest ages. but wh joint pn and stiffness from psoriatic arthritis hit, even the smallest things became difficult.

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♪ lou: $16 trillion in national debt, some put that figure closer to a nearly $90 trillion. among them, a former ways and means committee chairman bill archer. he joins us here in just moments to take a look at the fiscal cliff. a man who, as i said earlier in the broadcast was present at the previous precipices and survived it all. he will give us his insights. first, going to wall street, the markets tonight. "moneyline." stuck in a fairly tight trading

range. investors cautious as they grow increasingly nervous about the fiscal cliff. the dow jones industrial down 14 points, s&p lost and a half, nasdaq down six. over 3 billion shares traded on the big board today. two more companies announcing special cash dividends. the investment company the announcing a dividend of $0.20 per share in the special dividend of a dollar per share both payable before year's end. and announcing a dollar dividend per share, payable on christmas eve. in its release, they went on to say that after january 1st the company believes paying cash dividends may not be the most effective way of rewarding shareholders with those higher taxes on dividends. well, our next guest here says, as washington is wrestling with a fiscal clef, they are not contending with far greater challenges, often hidden from policymakers and the public because of our less than transparent government financial

reporting to say the least. well, we often hear about, of course, $16 trillion national debt, a trillion dollar deficit first, the actual liabilities of the federal government, including social security, medicare, federal employees future retirement benefits exceeding $866trillion. by the way, that is five and a half times the size of our economy. joining us, former congressman bill archer, served as chairman of the powerful ways and means committee. he is a senior policy adviser at price waterhouse coopers, and it is great to see you, mr. chairman, once again. you look terrific. i enjoyed your op-ed along with chris cox. pointing out that essentially what a relief it was to find out of all have to worry about $16 trillion. i have to worry about $86 trillion. >> it is much bigger than what we were looking at. the so-called fiscal cliff is

going to be just a slope and ultimately a relatively small indentation because in the long term when we began to look at the liabilities that we have committed to primarily medicare, but also social security and other ffderal retirement, it is massive. and this strange thing about it is here we are debating, should we increase taxes? and yet these particular programs, if you look at what those liabilities are, so big that there is not going to be enough tax revenue to take care of it. even if you took 100 percent of the corporate earnings someone under percent of the individual earnings of 65,000, you don't have enough money to take care of it. lou: there is not enough money. let's be straight forward here. $86 trillion. i mean, that's just about takes

care of the world's gdp. and the fact is, this debate over the fiscal cliff, you have gone through this the exercise and trauma before. 1996 as chairman of the house ways and means committee. a center stage position. what counsel could you give the speaker, the republican leaders president who has set the conditions for not only what must be met in order to avoid the cliff, but has set the parameters of the debate and negotiation if there is to be one itself. >> well, you remember very well that we had a very different white house. president clinton had decided that he was going to try to work with the republicans. he brought in a new chief of staff by the name of erskine bowles, and in that has popped up again. and he immediately called me and said to my here to work with you and that enabled us to do a lot of things that i don't think the

republicans today can get done with this obama white house. lou: and are you and i in agreement that the republicans are not in nearly sufficiently strong position, not with the lack of talent, there are some questions about that, but because of the lack f power of the leaders in the house and the role of the house in this negotiation. >> i am not prepared to ay that. i go up to the capitol every week and meet with the republican leaders and listen to them as they talked very openly about what their views are and what they're trying to get done. and i can tell you that they are a lot stronger than they have been presented by the conservative media. the interesting thing about the speaker is to make you look carefully at his proposals, he is never implying that he would increase tax rates.

and yet the mentioned the breitbart comments. and that is really not accurate. lou: you know, as a former -- as a distinguished chairman of the house ways and means committee i think you and i would agree, revenue will be taxed, whether it is eliminating loopholes, whether it is eliminating special treatment, or whether it is raising taxes directly. the result is higher revenue, and it means somebody has to pay taxes to cover. am i incorrect? >> the rates have a much greater limiting a fact and restricting affect on entrepreneurship. and so therefore there really are to be avoided in every way possible. but the country has got to face up to this mounting debt and liability which is not even been admitted to in this 16 chilean

dollars. and this is -- this is a massive, massive chasm that is facing the country. and if we don't do something about it and get on with it now it's going to give more and more and more difficult. lou: as interim member commission that you served on that was supposed to have taken this out under bill clinton. that really just set the stage for the commission that you just referred to, the erskine bowles commission, and here we are almost 20 years later. we're out of time. i wish we had more. i appreciate you. great to see you. and be sure to tell newt gingrich's love for me. there is a story behind that. i should not have done that. my best to you. up next, the civil war raging in serious sets off alarms in the obama administration as reports of chemical weapons are surfacing. we will be talking syria, egypt,

iran, israel, palestine, possible u.s. intervention. his new book. i wonder, is that it? that is it. my goodness. that's good. that's dead. what's next?

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♪ lou: protests in cairo turning violent today. the president dictatorship under threat. at least 100,000 egyptians broke through police lines and i and dates to reach the presidential palace before they were forced back by riot police with batons and tear gas. demonstrations signaling momentum, of course, for the opposition which brought out at least 200,000 protesters last week. that rivals the levels of protest back in the so-called arab spring, february of 2011, when president hosni mubarak was

ousted. well, joining us now, colonel oliver north, fox is military analyst, host of war stories, author of a terrific collection of stories, new york times best-seller, euros proved. great to have you with us. congratulations on the book. >> thank you. lou: want to get to that in just a moment. i want to get your reaction to what we're watching take place and to that -- to rear square at the presidential palace in egypt. >> here is the good news. there are 100,000 people left in egypt who want to protest a dictatorship of sharia which is what we're going to see with the muslim brotherhood backing more cy and his regime and his attempt at dictatorship. it will be crushed. the bad news is they will suppress this rebelllon. they will suppress it with the police and thh muslim brotherhood talks. at the end of the day, the christian movement that used to

exist, the coptic christian churches no longer a force to be reckoned with. secular muslims no longer have a role to play in this government, and ultimately that rebounds to our disadvantage. our only real ally in that part of the world to my israel. >> and the reason we continue to fund this government cannot to continue the policies of which egypt is simply a part, libya as well, the distance of which we have remained from events in syria without a clear cut policy. what are your thoughts? >> well, this serious situation has become much more serious simply because we now have evidence that the aside regime is moving the precursors and chemical agents to places we may not be able to deaa with. nato took a look at it today and said, they're going to do something about it. as you and i know, nato is toothless to do anything about

it without the united states, -nd it could take upwards of about 50,000 troops to secure those chemical munitions, weapons of mass destruction that threaten not only the people inside syria, but also the neighborhood, to include turkey, thus the need for those patriot missiles coming over. lou: are you surprised that we are sending patriot missilee and defense systems to the turks? >> no. in fact of this has been hanging fire for some months. the one to make sure they have some means of protecting themselves, not simply from rockets coming in from syria, but they want to protect themselves from what the iranians are building with the help, of course. lou: and we can talk forever about the turkey and the relationship that is emerging there, but i want to talk your, as we wrap up, about this new book. oliver north, heroes proof. set in the future in which you

imagine issues that, well, frankly, are taking place today. >> twenty years from now, and i did not have any idea that the terror attack that killed americans would be wise about by an administration r that israel would face the existential threat that it does today. those kinds of things are in this book. of course, hopefully, a brighter future for america when we realize was really happening, the second amendment being denied by the united nations kamal things that this administration is doing in this book. by the way, service members, those who are serving overseas, soldiers, sailors, airmen, garcia, marines to make you want to get a signed copy get oliver north. on the side of that boston will be up there in new york next week. the army navy game. that ad in the middle of the program. i have to say, the army. lou: i have k t. mcfarland and a

host of folks, admiral james lyons, they're going to be right with you on that. >> you got it to my brother. it will be a great game, no afford to being in new york with you on monday. lou: the floor to it. you can get a copy of euros proved on-line or at bookstores now. go to loudobbs.com to get a link that will work as well. twenty-seven days until the fiscal cliff. president obama and the speaker still not negotiating. are they serious about solving this crisis? the "a-team". they join us in moments. obamacare at least one year away from full implementation. but you don't have to wait for the tax hikes. $317 billion in new taxes. set to kick in january 1st. and we will show you the latest tax increase brought to you by the people who created obamacare

. get ready for armageddon. is america reelly headed to help? is there any way to stop the document author of after america, mark stein joins me next. ♪

♪ lou: welcome all fundamental dishonesty at the heart of america's financial crisis. my next guest saas americans really seems of want a european size government with current american size tax rates. one or the other has got to go. we will see. joining us now, author of the best seller, get ready for armageddon. also, a recording of -- i will explain my laughter. his new holiday cd, making spirits bright available on the amazon and itunes. i am trying to think how to do it. >> the words stuck in your

throat. lou: it is terrific. it is wonderful. here to prove the point, and it's ggod to have you. i wish you lots of luck. by the way, s t eyn. that's right. and i got it covered. >> that's right. why do i have to take lessons from this impertinent foreigner. lou: i don't see anything important abouttit. as see a lot of original thought and some damn fine intellect been brought to bear against an otherwise simple minded politician that cannot quite grasp the importance of solutions. you do. >> i think that was the real question of the heart of my book. i think the question at the heart of the election that the world wanted the answer to. is the united states capable of serious course correction? and i think both on november the sixth and in the so-called fiscal clef, sokol negotiations that followed, we are telling

the world that the united states is not capable of serious course correction, and that will have catastrophic consequences for america. lou: when you say catastrophic consequences, tonight it seems as if we are, this broadcast has been organized to prove your point. bill archer joined us, former house ways and means committee in 1996 who was president at almost the destruction of the government under president clinton and speaker gingrich. we have his experience, also the experience as a member of the budget commission put together by president clinton which came to nothing. just as the simpson bowles commission came to nothing. and as this fiscal clef being managed by his president does not look promising. >> that is really the point you brought up earlier. when you have european levels of spending which we now have come up you have traditional american tax rates, that cannot give.

americans have a certain self-image. canada, americans think of canada as a semi french socialist market. total government spending in canada is about 42% of gdp. is now 41% in the united states commits of the difference between the sturdy, manley republic of limited government and self-reliance citizens and the semi french monarchy is actually just down to 1%. we actually spend, government spends more per citizen on the average american than the french government does in the average frenchman. lou: i think you're being unfair to americans. we think of quebec, but certainly not all of canada, and more of our refuge. reach extreme. >> they're building a maple curtain. you better get there soon. lou: as we look at what is happening, bill archer is talking about $86 trillion in

unfunded liabilities as we cannot manage even the 16 trillion in debt or consecutive years of italian dollar eficits, brought to us by george w. bush, and all fairness. >> well, i think the point here is that when people make comparisons, comparisons are relevant because you can run the numbers and say in terms of gdp -- relation to gdp or never, we are not quite as bad as greece or portugal or never, but they are just talking about a few ring keating billions. a trillion word is really unique to the united states. and i think that is what is going to kill us, the absolute numbers. germany can afford to bailout greece. nobody can afford to bailout the united states, and i would agree actually with bill archer that i think he understated. if you take the total debt situation, you're talking about just shy of three-quarters of a million dollars for the -- per

american family. so you get a cup of coffee from a waitress in the diner, think of loading three-quarters of a million dollars of debt on to her shoulders for what? for what? does nothing to show for. lou: her children and their children that will be paying a large measure of that. great to have you with us. making spirits bright. and after america with one of the ugliest pictures of an american cadaver toe tag to. >> doom and the oven is the into debt. lou: at least some balance here. you know how much are president loves balance. great to have you with this. up next, the fiscal cliff. it is hung up on tax for the rich. not really. we will tell you why those taxes are going up regardless of the deal. tomorrow, former u.s. ambassador to the united nations, moody's

keep -- chief economists. best-selling author among our guest. please be with us. and as we go to break, here's a little christmas cheer. before pd...

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♪ lou: progress on avoiding the fiscal clifford appears to be, well, stifled. it turns up the president is hitting the rich with tax increases regardless. the internal revenue service releasing 159 new regulations and rules, heading investment income and wages for high income individuals. these regulations passed has nothing to do, of course, with the fiscal cliff and everything to do with obamacare, including a almost 4 percent surtax on

capital gains and dividends, plus almost 1 percent tax on the new tax is estimated to generate threonine 17 billion over ten years, just about 12 percent of the two and a half trillion the budget committee estimates the law will cost of that time. here we go. 2013 looks like an interesting, interesting year. this year the mighty mississippi river almost too shallow to even move barges, barges carrying food, fuel, other commodities. right now it is a very difficult passage on the mississippi. warm weather, drought, the reason the army corps of engineers typically would be releasing more water into the river from the missouri allow one barges to pass for another month or so, but the missouri river is also dramatically lowered to be this means billions of dollars of commerce will have to find alternative means to get to market. the midwest drought has

increased the value. so much so there is a sharp increase in the theft of hay from fields. some farmers have resorted to putting gps tracking devices in those bales so that they can track a stolen. up next, house speaker turning -- running into medical opposition over his proposals. democrats sending mixed signals over what is on the negotiating table. that's right. and the "a-team" will be taking all of that and a great deal more. joining us. they're right here. right here. right now. ♪ [ malennouncer ] it's ttime of year again. time for citprice rewind. becauseour dahter really wants that pincale tng. and you realldon't nt to pay more than you ve to. only citi price rewind automatically searches r the lowest ice. and if it findone, you get refunded t difference. just use your citi card

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♪ lou: joining me now, the "a-team," columnist, author, former prosecutor, fox is legal

analyst, former clinton adviser, fox news political analyst. thank you all for being here. i have to start with this fiscal cliff that is being managed. i said at the beginning of this broadcast, this is unequivocally and solely the president's decision. it is his solution that will determine whether we go into a fiscal cliff. why is the republican party not getting that? >> well, i think they missed out on a big opportunity to own this argument. they missed out on it. mitt romney missed out on it during the presidential campaign. and it was missed out on this time around. a lot of conservatives are really hoping that he was going to dig his heels in on this issue and but for the proposal that was all right and ask and we could count on it and maybe do some of the pr and marketing to back that up so we can swing public opinion. >> except clearly that is not happening. >> let's move forward. hindsight. okay. mistakes were made. now what to do?

a tour republican party sees this is a huge political game, why don't they do something about it? >> the republican party is going to get blamed. if you look at all of the polling, the pure research, everyone is saying this is the republicans' fault. i think at this point they need, he needed to do what he did. that's all he could do. he needed to put something for it. lou: we need to -- makes it sound as though, making it sound as if there is nothing the republicans can do, that it is now a matter that is, by default, done. >> the republicans are engaged command a greek, and self-destructive behavior. that being said, they have not supported pro-growth, pro job creation policies involving lower taxes, stimulus, with some semblance of motion that there has to be a raise in revenue with a consistent, concerted foison message. because of the republican failure, and it is an abject

failure, the political gain ghost abroad, and the democrats. >> they're advocating for more revenue. they're doing it their deductions and loopholes. lou: if i hear more about deductions and loopholes. >> i know. >> the american people care about principle one thing cannot ration, reasonable government that suits their needs and approaches, at least, some level of the values that we still hold as a country. we're coming right back with the "a-team" in moments. stay with us. been bugged can

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lou: today bob kostas offered a sort of apology i think they become standard, the template, antian exquisite piece of rationalizing and blame shifting in one. that is magnificent, said, my

mistake, and i left it open for too much miscommunication. he said in a inser view on the dan patrick show that is brilliant stuff. great. he apologizes for the mistake of others. as they fail to comprehend his lofty musings. do you think you will hear -- following the template. >> i have seen in a candidate, they engage with great frequency. >> deny, deny, make counter again, that is the what we -- -- lou: there is no denial for prosecutor and state in florida,

george zimmerman they released a picture of that. >> a color photo with the bloody nose. lou: ii this was shown in my opinion, i want yours lee we would not have a discussion about george zimmerman. >> it was shown but it was gist a black and white a beginning, defense had to ask. the same picture but now in color, defense asked again and again. to be fair to prosecution,. lou: i know how fair you lawyers like to be. >> that is us. they may not have had the color in their own file. lou: are we going through this? >> just giving you both sides. lou: do you think that any grand jury would have brought this -- if they had seen that. >> no. this -- >> they saw the black and white to be fair, they just didn't see the color. >> i don't think that black and white photo and color photo

elicit the same span, you look at this -- response, you look at this photo you immediately think self-defense. lou: we have color otherwise think what a travesty of justice all those grand juries in the day of black and white photos. >> it is probable cause for a grand jury. lou: and do you think that he should be prosecuted? >> you know, my sense is given that picture, i'm a lot less supportive of pro prosecution b. >> it would have changed a lot of people's mines, and if the media had not rushed to judge so quickly. >> it will turn on the stan your ground law. lou: that is the answer, should he have been prosecuted on that. >> i do not have all of the facts. lou: